Discussion:
PCs could boot quickly
(too old to reply)
James Harris
2021-10-21 20:02:45 UTC
Permalink
You guys might be interested in this. The guy claims it as the world's
fastest-booting PC. That may be something of an overclaim but this is
the fastest I've ever seen a PC boot - about 2.5 seconds to MS-DOS 3.3.
And that's on an 8086!


--
James Harris
Branimir Maksimovic
2021-10-21 21:06:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Harris
You guys might be interested in this. The guy claims it as the world's
fastest-booting PC. That may be something of an overclaim but this is
the fastest I've ever seen a PC boot - about 2.5 seconds to MS-DOS 3.3.
And that's on an 8086!
http://youtu.be/DaSkda4XW3k
Well my M1 Macbook boots to Gui in few seconds as well :P
--
7-77-777
Evil Sinner!
with software, you repeat same experiment, expecting different results...
wolfgang kern
2021-10-23 06:35:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Harris
You guys might be interested in this. The guy claims it as the world's
fastest-booting PC. That may be something of an overclaim but this is
the fastest I've ever seen a PC boot - about 2.5 seconds to MS-DOS 3.3.
And that's on an 8086!
  http://youtu.be/DaSkda4XW3k
remember my KESYS booted 512K and deployed itself to 4MB within 1.9 seconds.
__
wolfgang
James Harris
2021-10-23 08:23:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by wolfgang kern
Post by James Harris
You guys might be interested in this. The guy claims it as the world's
fastest-booting PC. That may be something of an overclaim but this is
the fastest I've ever seen a PC boot - about 2.5 seconds to MS-DOS
3.3. And that's on an 8086!
   http://youtu.be/DaSkda4XW3k
remember my KESYS booted 512K and deployed itself to 4MB within 1.9 seconds.
Yes, I remembered that your OS very impressively booted in about 2
seconds. AISI there are two parts to startup:

1. Firmware boot time
2. OS boot time

As the video shows, both of those were negligible on that old 8086. (And
it looked as though config.sys and autoexec.bat were empty so there was
nothing for the OS to do on startup.)

Today most PCs take some time in the firmware before an OS gets to start.

But typically the biggest drag on startup time is the OS. The most
common OS, Windows, can take many minutes while Windows gets its act
together. And the story doesn't end there. Even after my Windows PC has
presented a GUI it will be virtually unusable for some further period of
time because it is still hammering the disk.

Maybe the old days had some good after all. :-)
--
James Harris
Kerr-Mudd, John
2021-10-23 08:46:05 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 23 Oct 2021 09:23:39 +0100
Post by James Harris
Post by wolfgang kern
Post by James Harris
You guys might be interested in this. The guy claims it as the
world's fastest-booting PC. That may be something of an overclaim
but this is the fastest I've ever seen a PC boot - about 2.5
seconds to MS-DOS 3.3. And that's on an 8086!
   http://youtu.be/DaSkda4XW3k
remember my KESYS booted 512K and deployed itself to 4MB within 1.9 seconds.
Yes, I remembered that your OS very impressively booted in about 2
1. Firmware boot time
2. OS boot time
As the video shows, both of those were negligible on that old 8086.
(And it looked as though config.sys and autoexec.bat were empty so
there was nothing for the OS to do on startup.)
Today most PCs take some time in the firmware before an OS gets to start.
But typically the biggest drag on startup time is the OS. The most
common OS, Windows, can take many minutes while Windows gets its act
together. And the story doesn't end there. Even after my Windows PC
has presented a GUI it will be virtually unusable for some further
period of time because it is still hammering the disk.
Maybe the old days had some good after all. :-)
Xpud on a(n?) eeePC was 10s!

https://www.popsci.com/diy/article/2009-04/wranglin-fastest-boot-west/

(but FF 2.5 won't get a lot of the internet these days)
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
Rod Pemberton
2021-10-23 09:21:30 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 21:02:45 +0100
Post by James Harris
You guys might be interested in this. The guy claims it as the
world's fastest-booting PC. That may be something of an overclaim but
this is the fastest I've ever seen a PC boot - about 2.5 seconds to
MS-DOS 3.3. And that's on an 8086!
http://youtu.be/DaSkda4XW3k
Didn't you bring up this issue previously? Or, was that someone else?

Well, that is for an early small BIOS, with a very small text-based OS,
probably without any device drivers, with a relatively fast for the era
8086. Yes? And, it really didn't seem like it was loaded from a
floppy (real slow) or MFM hard disk (slow). So, I suspect it would've
been much slower if it was. Didn't he say something about a ROM drive?

Well, this mostly 2009 parts computer, i.e., a decade or so old now
(assembled 2013), takes roughly six seconds to boot MS-DOS 7.10, from a
slow Compact Flash card which is probably comparable to a hard disk, or
maybe slower ... Two seconds for the BIOS to execute, with most of that
time spent dynamically identifying hardware upon boot. Some uncounted
time for me to manually to select from the boot menu the DOS drive to
boot from, as it's non-primary. Then, about four seconds to load
MS-DOS and some DOS drivers. Obviously, it would be faster without the
drivers, if the machine booted straight through to the DOS drive, and
if I still had DOS on the SSD instead of the CF card. My recollection
was that it was nearly instantaneous to boot DOS when it was on the
SSD, taking only time for the BIOS to identify hardware.

So, your definition of "boot" doesn't only include executing the BIOS
and transferring execution to the boot loader? I.e., you define "boot"
as including executing the BIOS/UEFI, executing the boot loader (etc)
too, and executing a small text OS too, but not executing a large GUI
OS.

Since this machine is old now, I'd think that newer machines could boot
DOS just as fast, assuming they can even still boot DOS, and perhaps
even boot Linux or Windows GUIs quickly too.

Linux wastes lots of time displaying text of what it's doing when
booting/loading. It doesn't take that long, just a few seconds, to
start Linux GUI (XFCE) from a text-mode, command-line boot of Linux, on
this old machine. I wouldn't doubt it if Linux could be make to boot
into the GUI in about five seconds, if all the text display from Linux
boot scripts was deleted. BIOS 2 secs, Linux OS 1 sec (normally about
20 to 30 seconds ...), GUI 2 secs.

Windows 10, when it is being booted cleanly, wastes lots of time doing
something too, which I suspect is re-identifying hardware and
re-configuring. I suspect that because powered down or unplugged USB
devices are fairly consistently lost, or fail to be re-found correctly
once re-plugged or re-powered, sometimes requiring booting into
safe-mode to restore all of them.

I agree that booting/loading could be faster, but then you'd need to do
some sort of save-state of the OS, like certain OSes do when the
computer "sleeps" or "hibernates" or does a "quick shutdown". You'd
also need some way to quickly reset the hardware to the correct states
to match that of the OS save-state. And, if the OS boots fast, because
the machine is fast, what's the point?
--
Donald Trump: No oil rigs off the East coast.
Joe Biden: Windfarms off of all our coasts.
James Harris
2021-10-24 15:15:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Pemberton
On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 21:02:45 +0100
Post by James Harris
You guys might be interested in this. The guy claims it as the
world's fastest-booting PC. That may be something of an overclaim but
this is the fastest I've ever seen a PC boot - about 2.5 seconds to
MS-DOS 3.3. And that's on an 8086!
http://youtu.be/DaSkda4XW3k
Didn't you bring up this issue previously? Or, was that someone else?
No, I don't recall seeing that video before.
Post by Rod Pemberton
Well, that is for an early small BIOS, with a very small text-based OS,
probably without any device drivers, with a relatively fast for the era
8086. Yes? And, it really didn't seem like it was loaded from a
floppy (real slow) or MFM hard disk (slow). So, I suspect it would've
been much slower if it was. Didn't he say something about a ROM drive?
IIRC the PC booted from ROM.

...
Post by Rod Pemberton
So, your definition of "boot" doesn't only include executing the BIOS
and transferring execution to the boot loader? I.e., you define "boot"
as including executing the BIOS/UEFI, executing the boot loader (etc)
too, and executing a small text OS too, but not executing a large GUI
OS.
I didn't try to define 'boot'. You could give it different legitimate
meanings, e.g. to include firmware time or not and there could be a
debate about when a machine has finished booting.

For the latter, I'd say a machine has booted when it can be interacted
with normally by a user or by a remote program. By 'normally' I means as
long as no one experiences particular delays waiting for a component
part to start working.
Post by Rod Pemberton
I agree that booting/loading could be faster, but then you'd need to do
some sort of save-state of the OS, like certain OSes do when the
computer "sleeps" or "hibernates" or does a "quick shutdown". You'd
also need some way to quickly reset the hardware to the correct states
to match that of the OS save-state. And, if the OS boots fast, because
the machine is fast, what's the point?
That seems unlikely. Given that Wolfgang's OS boots in about 2 seconds
from when it gets control I doubt hardware discovery needs to be slow,
albeit that Wolfgang tends to use known hardware.
--
James Harris
wolfgang kern
2021-10-24 22:00:35 UTC
Permalink
On 24/10/2021 17:15, James Harris wrote:
...
Post by James Harris
Post by Rod Pemberton
I agree that booting/loading could be faster, but then you'd need to do
some sort of save-state of the OS, like certain OSes do when the
computer "sleeps" or "hibernates" or does a "quick shutdown".  You'd
also need some way to quickly reset the hardware to the correct states
to match that of the OS save-state.  And, if the OS boots fast, because
the machine is fast, what's the point?
That seems unlikely. Given that Wolfgang's OS boots in about 2 seconds
from when it gets control I doubt hardware discovery needs to be slow,
albeit that Wolfgang tends to use known hardware.
I didn't imply the machine specific BIOS power-up timing [8..30 Sec]
but yes it made hardware detection including an 8 bus PCI-scan [no pnp].
__
wolfgang
Carver Harrison
2021-10-28 21:05:39 UTC
Permalink
VWestlife is great. It is still completely possible to include an OS
into ROM. Some coreboot distributions (like the 3rd party ones for
Chromebooks) include a version of Buildroot Linux in ROM.
Post by James Harris
You guys might be interested in this. The guy claims it as the world's
fastest-booting PC. That may be something of an overclaim but this is
the fastest I've ever seen a PC boot - about 2.5 seconds to MS-DOS 3.3.
And that's on an 8086!
  http://youtu.be/DaSkda4XW3k
Carver
Dorper - https://dorper.me

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